Posts by moggy lover

29

a look to Isaiah.

by mdb in

thus says the lord [yhwh], the king of israel,.

and his redeemer, the lord [yhwh] of hosts:.

besides me there is no god.. isaiah 44:6. how many persons are speaking in isaiah 44:6?

a look to Isaiah.

by mdb in

thus says the lord [yhwh], the king of israel,.

and his redeemer, the lord [yhwh] of hosts:.

besides me there is no god.. isaiah 44:6. how many persons are speaking in isaiah 44:6?

Interreligious Relationships

by Kristofer in

experience is the best teacher.

i would like to know your opinions on my situation.. i have been in love with a girl for a year now who is an active witness.

recently she came out with the info because i had been a secret so long.

Hi, Kristofer - I think the advice already provided is absolutely right. Of course it seems unbearably hard to take especially if you love the lass very much. But to be brutally frank, it is not a good idea. Every relationship must be based on a sense of total commitment by both parties to the union. We all know that you are able to provide this for her, but the same is not true for her. Remember every time she goes to the KH, the assemblies, the fieldwork, she is constantly bombarded with the need to be loyal to the F&DS. Nothing less than total commitment is required to be a sucessful WT follower. When it comes to the crunch, she will take their side instead of yours. The problem is that it is there, at the crunch that a sucessful union is made. It's easy being "one-souled" when things are right. But it is when the crunch comes that you need to be "one-souled" Instead of harmony you will reap tension

Then, you mentioned children. Let's just suppose that, God forbid, you find that one of them needs a blood transfusion to survive a tragic accident. You love the kid with all your heart, in fact she has your eyes, and your stubborn streak, and all that. What will you do? We know what she will do, but the question is you. You're the one living inside your body. What will you do? Do you think that you have the emotional fibre to confront this situation sucessfully? Only you can honestly answer that.

I am sure no one is advocating that you suddenly slam the door and angrily walk out on her. I don't think it would be fair to her. Probably a long, and honest talk with her will help to show that it will not work out for either of you. Remember, she has the right to practise whatever religion she chooses it is a fundamental right in a free society. But also remember that you have every right to have a partner at your side who will reciprocate the total devotion you give her.

Cheers

16

Getting even with the WTS

by greendawn in

after being emotionally traumatised by the wts through their shunning policy due to being disfellowshipped or disassociated, or because of other issues that hurt you as a jw, did you manage to get even with them by harming their interests for example by helping jws to leave or directing interested persons away from them or any other way?

moggy lover

Hey! Good on yer Auld soul!! We need blokes like you [and all the others, of course] to put ourselves out to help those caught up in the WT movement. I did something like that back in the 80s when I threw off the WTS shackles. Along with a group of others, we started to run an evening "class" for those interested in the teachings of the WTS. We put descreet ads in the local community papers, and got quite a good response. Oddly enough we got more of the kind of people who already had someone in the WT movement, rather than themselves. Like distraught parents, whose kids had got caught up and husbands whose wives were in it and wives whose husbands were in it. They all wanted to know how to counter what appeared to be the plausible arguments of the WT. Like the WT fetish of all things "pagan" and the anti-social attitudes of the WT - no voting, no going in for higher education, the blood issue and so on. In turn these, having been educated in WT doctrine found that they could now talk intelligibly with those in the movement. Our method was to use the "Paradise" book [then the current "truth"] and point out its fallicies. It was exhausting but exhilirating at the same time. One of the more amusing episodes was when one of the kids in the movement told her parents that the "Paradise" book was rock-solid truth and would never need to be changed, simply because it was the TRUTH and truth does not change Promptly the WTS changed the teaching on Sodom and Gomorrah and page 179 became obsolete overnight. The kid was badly shaken but she stayed on only to leave some years later for unrelated reasons

Good to know you young'uns are carrying the work into the 21st Century - Go git 'em lads and lassies !!

Cheers

5

Birthday

by rootofallevil in

i know this has been brought up before but can someone remind me how we can explain the phrase "on his own day" mentioned in job 1:4 as meaning "on ones birthday"?

if i remember correctly, in the same book (job) a few chapters later there is a mention of this phrase which clearly shows that it was on their birthday.

also isn't it interesting that job felt obligated to offer burnt sacrifises in case one of his children had "cursed god in their heart".

moggy lover

Hi, Rootofallevil, as you can see from the response of AlmostAtheist your question is not an easy one to answer, precisely because the word as we use it today "birthday" - does not occur at Job 1:4. The reason is because there is no such word in the Heb. The way the Heb describes this concept is with the expression 'Yom ha-Yalad' which literally means "day of the birth" This phrase occurs at Gen 40:20, where that brilliant Heb "scholar" Freddie Franz "translated" that phrase as Pharaoh's "birthday" lit "Yom ha-Yalad" - day of his birth.

Now let us try and answer your question - using the WTS favourite buzz word "reason" Let's now "reason" on this matter. What we want to know is: what does the expression at Job 1:4 mean when it says "his own day" - "yom" - Right?

Well Job 3:1 uses the expression "His day" - Like Job 1:4 it is the word "Yom" - day - What "day" was Job referring to when he spoke of "his day" ???? hmmmm?

Let's look at the very next verses, at Job 3:3, actually. Here Job tells us that he was speakng of his "Yom ha-Yalad" !!!!!! ie "the day of his birth" or [yup you guessed it] his "birthday" !!!!!!

So - "day" of Job 3:1= "Yom ha-Yalad" ie "day of [one's] birth"- "birthday"

Therefore, I submit that "day" of Job 1:4 = "day of [one's] birth" - "birthday"

Actually there is at least one translation to my knowledge which uses "birthday" at Job 1:4 and it is the New Living Translation

Incidently, if Freddie could "translate" the expression "Yom ha-Yalad" as "Birthday" at Gen 40:20, then why did'nt he do the same at Job 3:3, [or for that matter why not at Ez 16:4 as well]

So as you can see, though we cannot be absolutely dogmatic about this matter [indeed we certainly ought not to be] we can be "reasonably" certain that textually the Heb WAS referring - in some way - to those kid's birthdays Of course the WTS will always protest [methinks they protest too loudly probably knowing how weak their case is] by quoting Prof So-and-So But believe me, I would rather be us than them on this matter. We've got several of the finest scholars to back us up [William Gesenius, Jameson Fausett and Brown, Matthew Henry, etc] plus something devastating - the freedom to think for ourselves

Hope this helps

Cheers

12

Pride in Statistics. How well are the JW's doing, really?

by jgnat in

this week's study article is: people "out of all the languages" hear the good news (december 1, 2005 wt) .

and they state "eagerly embracing that commission, jehovah's witnesses are active in 235 lands, distributing literature in more than 400 languages.

a recurring theme with jehovah's witnesses is pride in statistics; the volume of literature they place, the number of lands where their version of the good news is preached, their growth, and the number of translations available.

moggy lover

Hey Wow Jgnat that was a greaaaat piece of research! It certainly helps to see WT statistics in perspective. I have always felt that these statistics for which the WTS is so inordinately proud are impressive only in isolation. I feel that there are several little things that the WTS does to exaggerate the numbers. Take the number of lands that they are represented in: 235 - now that's impressive is'nt it? In fact the org will point out that it beats all those other groups you listed. The fact is, that several of these lands, which happen to be a single geo-political and administrative unit are deliberately broken down to give the impression that the WTS is more widespread than it is.

Take for instance the Netherlands Antilles - it is made up of six islands all of which are grouped together under one Head of State with one flag and one currency: Bonaire, Curacao, Saba, St Eustatius, and St Maarten. These are all listed seperately in the statistics [I only have the 2003 census from the 01.01.04 WT] as if they are more than one "land"

Then you've got the US Territory of The Northern Marianas, which is also only one land, but by listing the three islands of Saipan, Tinian, and Rota seperately we get this larger figure

The Federated States of Micronesia is made up of 4 states [or islands, but still officialy called states] these are Kosrae, Pohnpei, Chuuk, [or Truk] and Yap . These are listed seperately as well.

The Federation of St Kitts and Nevis is "one land" but it is listed seperately

This makes 15 seperate entries in the stats that actually represent only 4 "lands"

Using this same logic, I submit we could list the 50 states of the Union seperately, the 4 Home Countries of the UK [England, Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland] seperately, the 12 provinces of Canada, the 7 states of Australia, the 3 islands of New Zealand, the 16 lander of Germany etc etc all seperately - Now THAT would be one hell of a stat!! You could create some 500 "lands"

But then, maybe the "statisticians" of the WTS have only this limited imagination

Still, and all, your research was terific thanks

Cheers

31

Did you criticise/expose the WTS after leaving?

by greendawn in

after leaving the jws as df/ed or disass/ed were you willing to expose them for what they are to others, or were you unwilling to do so because you still felt respect for them for being the "truth"?

moggy lover

Not as an individual, but, yes I did. When I left the WT movement in the mid 80s I soon discovered that others had left also - but for seperate reasons. Most of us were old fogeys like myself and it took us awhile to get our act together, because we felt there was something we could do together. We started by advertising a phone message in the local paper, where an interested person could hear a brief 3 minute "talk" and we left them open to contact us if they wanted to. We pledged to uphold total annonimity. Some actually responded. We also started an evening meeting once a week where we would go through the "Paradise" book. Oddly enough, as word got around we began to get people to these meetings whose kids or spouses were locked into the movement and who wanted to know more about the group. It got to the point where we were averaging some 40 people to these meetings from all walks of life. I tell you, it was exhilarating and great fun while it lasted

Cheers

39

A concerted effort during a watchtower study?

by mkr32208 in

was thinking about this today!

what we need to come up with is something like crazies 586/7 list from watchtower sources showing the kings list.

then next time they have a prophecy watchtower study we could all go to different halls where no one would know us and have a prepared answer typed up with watchtowerese language something like;.

moggy lover

Hi,Auld soul sorry for taking so long getting back to you. 27 yrs 8 mths

Mar 57 aged 15 baptized

Aug 72 aged 30 appointed MS in my local cong

Aug 74 aged 32 appointed elder

Jan 81 increasingly suspicious of so-called WT "scholarship" I decided to find out things for myself My first task was to learn NT Greek So, while still an elder, I enrolled in Bible College At that time, Perth Bible College, here in Western Australia, had an external programme which enabled students to learn NT greek after hours. It was held two nights a week, over 18 months and included three semesters The course was called Greek 1

Nov 84 having having completed the course, I sent in my disassociation letter, resigning all my responsibilities

Never been back since

Unfortunately medical treatment is going to keep me away from JWD forum for three weeks I'll probably catch you sometime after 8 Jan

Cheers Moggy Lover

39

A concerted effort during a watchtower study?

by mkr32208 in

was thinking about this today!

what we need to come up with is something like crazies 586/7 list from watchtower sources showing the kings list.

then next time they have a prophecy watchtower study we could all go to different halls where no one would know us and have a prepared answer typed up with watchtowerese language something like;.

moggy lover

Say, Can I jump in the pool and throw around a coupla ideas? [I promise not to pee in the pool or pull my daks off underwater - although what the hell there's nuttin to see in this 64 yr old body] Now, where was I? Oh yeah, to my way of thinking talking to the [riff]R&F of the WT movement in a tribal setting, such as their KHs, Assemblies etc aint such a good idea, because: 1 You will be talking up to their strengths. Seeing each other, feeling each other's presence, surrounded by the comforting assurance of their religious activities, they will also collectively herd together, making it damn near impossible to get anything through.

2 Then you've got the closed mind. Remember, not only do the [riff] R&F deceive, they also practise self-deception. Remember when we were ourselves members of the [riff]R&F? How did we react when someone came up with something that sounded suss? Damn right! The shutters would immedieately come down letting no light through. How the hell did the GB manage this remote control? Simple, the same way Hitler did or Uncle Joe Stalin, or any such dictatorial system did and that was to use the Closed Mind. Endless, mind numbing repitition, repeated over and over again, reinforcing the Big Lie. In the case of the WTS, it was to inculcate the idea that the GB were the exclusive spokesmen for J.Hoover [Esq] No proof was provided because no proof was considered necessary, Assertion, boldly and dogmatically made was sufficient. Now this is the interesting bit. It was only when this constant drip was loosened, when for our personal reasons we started to drop off meetings that our minds slowly, agonizingly almost, began to open [Me? I just could'nt take "this" now means "that" and "it depends on what "is" is and so on any more.] It is only when this "feeding" starts to break down, that we will be able to nail the suckers.

3 Sheer bloody ignorance. How much did we really know when we of the [riff]R&F? About Archaeology? Babylonian history? Bugger all. Take the King List. How come none of the [riff]R&F have heard nothing of this? King List? what King List? It is simply because the WTS has never published any such thing!! I remember [Gawd! When was it? Back in the 70s maybe? Blondie will have to help out here with some research] when I had the misfortune of being the BS conductor for that odious book " Baylon the Great has Fallen" [ It still holds the record for being the longest book study book that the WTS has brought out. Its nearly 700 pages took us some 2 years of absolute bloody agony to get through] Although they prattled on about about the Babylonian kings, NEVER once did they actually publish a simple list of them all together. I seem to remember a graph they had with all the kings as descendig from each other, but no dates were given or lengths of the reign provided. Even the Aid book which had an exhaustive listing for the Hebrew kings did not do this for the Babylonian ones. Tactics such as this makes it impossible to conceptualize the significance of the reigns of these kings of Babylon. This ignorance goes all the way to the top. I remember reading as a sub-text to the observations of Ray Franz, in his book, COC, of the apalling ignorance of many of the GB members on this subject. VAT 4956? The only VAT that interested the 2nd Prez of the WTS, Judge Ruther-turd, was VAT69. He got most of his ideas "in the spirit" [No not the Holy kind, the Jack Daniels kind] By most accounts, Nathan Homer Gnaw, being a semi-literate, could'nt tell a Babylonian King List from a leg of pork! Freddie Flintstone Franz, rejoicing in the dogmatism that is the exclusive possesion of the ignorant, held his piece. Milton the Mute was just that- mute.

Thats what we're up against. But dont despair We got out did'nt we? We know about the lengths of all these kings don't we? How come? Dunnow. But I believe there IS Someone out there who cares Let Him be Him He will bring out those He wants to and maybe He will even use people like us and forums such as this to do so.

Look I'd really love to stay and chat but... Good Lord! Is that the time? She-Who-Must-Be-Fed must be fed

Cheers

34

Profile of the New Awake!

by Severus in

jw's now have the january awake!

in hand.

notice that there is no specific date, for the awake!

moggy lover

Hi, I'm kinda new here. Thanks Severus for that "scoop" on the new Dozey! magazine Omigawd! what

have I just said?? I mean Awake! [ the exclamation mark always bothered me] Back in the 60s when I was a 20yr old standing on the street corner every saturday arvo pushing the Awake! [yes marm, just like the the Readers Digest, only better] onto disinterested passersby, we held the Awake! in almost gospel like esteem - the only thing nearer to God was the Watchtower - it must somehow mean that its importance has diminished in the eyes of the R&F By the way now that I have become a disinterested passerby I don't see any of the faithful on the street corners anymore. Although I did bump into a furtive sort of character one morning near the train station, I almost expected him to flip open his coat and sell me dirty postcards or cheap watches. I wonder if Nathan Homer Gnaw is turning in his grave - or wherever it is former GB members go? He so loved statistics and the graph going upwards I also wonder if the R&F are embarrassed by the utter childishness of some of the articles? I mean '' can you identify the guys in the boat''??? It seems not much has changed. When Freddy wrote the articles they were so convoluted they were impossible to understand, now they are so moronic they are STILL impossible to understand

Good Lord!! Is that the time? Sorry- must rush, She Who Must Be Fed is snapping at my ankles Cheers